Why can't we say 'fork'? // Vote for saying fuck

[toomanycurls]

Hello  

An idea that the staff crew has been kicking around for some time is whether we should allow people to say the word fuck on the forums. Currently you can use initialist version of fuck through "af", "wtf", and I think a few others. People have always been able to convey the sentiment of fuck on the forums but we'd like to see if the community on this site is okay seeing the word fuck. 

With any charged word, such as bitch, it's important to remember context. Using fuck on the forums would still need to comport with our rules around anti-harrassment, bullying, and mature content. 

We'll leave this poll open for a week or so. This poll is for all members of the site -- please all be heard. 

[RoxiMalfoy]

I do think that in some situations it should be okay; like if you're quoting a line from a fic, or using it in a picspam/graphic/aesthetic for your story, for example (so long as it's tactful). But as for just using it in casual conversations and status update posts and stuff, Idk. I mean, don't get me wrong, I use the F-word Irl and in DM's like a mother, lol. But Idk how exactly I'd feel (or how some of our younger members might necessarily feel) about seeing it thrown around nonchalantly on the forums every day like that... Idk. I'm conflicted because I do also feel as though it's a trust thing, and I think that most our members do all have enough class and respect to not use the word disrespectfully at all, if given the trust/freedom to do so... Sooo, maybe my Slytherin is showing again, and this is just me being all "traditional values" and whatnot and avoiding the change, lol.  

[just.a.willow.tree]

I think it'd be great

edit; Can I ask how the “only in specific places” option would be implemented, just out of curiosity? I feel like that could be a good compromise but I’m wondering where it would be allowed and where it wouldn’t be 

[magemadi]

1 hour ago, just.a.willow.tree said:

Can I ask how the “only in specific places” option would be implemented, just out of curiosity? I feel like that could be a good compromise but I’m wondering where it would be allowed and where it wouldn’t be 

I would also appreciate a bit of clarification on this compromise option. 

And @RoxiMalfoy makes the good point about some members potentially not enjoying seeing it thrown around willy nilly on the forums, especially if they're not used to that type of language or if they just don't use it themselves. I am also (rather) prolific in my usage of it on my Twitter feed because it's my personal account, but on the forums I rarely swear past a frustrated "damn," and I know that this could easily have issues due to the "strength" the word can carry in conversations. 

Thank you for holding this poll, though, it's great to see all of these potential changes being discussed by staffers and members  

[toomanycurls]

12 hours ago, RoxiMalfoy said:

But Idk how exactly I'd feel (or how some of our younger members might necessarily feel) about seeing it thrown around nonchalantly on the forums every day like that... Idk. I'm conflicted because I do also feel as though it's a trust thing, and I think that most our members do all have enough class and respect to not use the word disrespectfully at all, if given the trust/freedom to do so

The reason we have a poll about it is out of concern for people who would feel uncomfortable seeing fuck used casually in posts. Any major change in how the community operates is always put to a vote. And you're right about trust -- we're trusting that people won't abuse the word fuck to be mean, rude, etc. 

11 hours ago, just.a.willow.tree said:

Can I ask how the “only in specific places” option would be implemented, just out of curiosity? I feel like that could be a good compromise but I’m wondering where it would be allowed and where it wouldn’t be

This could be done a few ways -- maybe we allow the word fuck in the writing nest or in writing talk because that is a word people use in their writing. Or we could set up an entirely separate section that you'd have to request to join where mature content (and the word fuck) are discussed. 

[poppunkpadfoot]

3 hours ago, toomanycurls said:

This could be done a few ways -- maybe we allow the word fuck in the writing nest or in writing talk because that is a word people use in their writing. Or we could set up an entirely separate section that you'd have to request to join where mature content (and the word fuck) are discussed. 

 

I had originally voted No, but reading this response, I actually like the idea of it being allowed in writing nest/writing talk. The reason I have hesitations around it being allowed in general isn't because I'm worried people will use it to be mean/rude, but because I feel like strong language can really heighten situations. My example would be, in the middle of a House Cup event that a House is struggling with, it's not uncommon to see a lot of very frustrated posts in the CR - and I feel like the stronger the language in those posts is, the more heightened everyone's frustration gets? I don't know how well I'm wording this but basically my concern is around unintentional escalation of situations, without the intention in those situations being meanness or rudeness.

(To give a more concrete HC example: I feel like "f*ck this, I give up" has a very different energy than just "I give up", and while the person writing it might intend it come across in the same way either way, it's easier to read "f*ck this, I give up" as aggressive/angry.)

You could make rules around not directing the word at other users or at site events, but I almost wonder if that's complicating things too much and it would just be easier to have blanket permission or a blanket ban. Even with allowing it in certain areas of the site and not others, I can easily see someone forgetting and using it in an area that's not allowed.

I can also say that when I joined HPFF at age 12, it was absolutely a very valuable space for me to participate in; and I do think, speaking for 12-year-old me only, I would've been put off and alienated by seeing the f-word thrown around everywhere over there. I hate the idea of a younger person not feeling comfortable accessing a site that could be very valuable and nurturing for them. It might come down to a question of, how kid-friendly do we want to be? Or are we mostly geared towards adults? Given that the rating system on the archive classes the f-word as a Mature-level swear word and you have to confirm that you're 17+ to read stories that include it, would this effectively make the forums a 17+ space? Are we cool with that?

Turns out I have a bunch of weird and complicated feelings on this issue despite the fact that the f-word is basically every second word that comes out of my mouth  Idk maybe my concerns are just me overthinking, and maybe I sound like a pearl-clutching grandma who doesn't understand The Youths, but these are the things I'm wondering about

[TreacleTart]

30 minutes ago, poppunkpadfoot said:

 

I had originally voted No, but reading this response, I actually like the idea of it being allowed in writing nest/writing talk. The reason I have hesitations around it being allowed in general isn't because I'm worried people will use it to be mean/rude, but because I feel like strong language can really heighten situations. My example would be, in the middle of a House Cup event that a House is struggling with, it's not uncommon to see a lot of very frustrated posts in the CR - and I feel like the stronger the language in those posts is, the more heightened everyone's frustration gets? I don't know how well I'm wording this but basically my concern is around unintentional escalation of situations, without the intention in those situations being meanness or rudeness.

(To give a more concrete HC example: I feel like "f*ck this, I give up" has a very different energy than just "I give up", and while the person writing it might intend it come across in the same way either way, it's easier to read "f*ck this, I give up" as aggressive/angry.)

You could make rules around not directing the word at other users or at site events, but I almost wonder if that's complicating things too much and it would just be easier to have blanket permission or a blanket ban. Even with allowing it in certain areas of the site and not others, I can easily see someone forgetting and using it in an area that's not allowed.

I can also say that when I joined HPFF at age 12, it was absolutely a very valuable space for me to participate in; and I do think, speaking for 12-year-old me only, I would've been put off and alienated by seeing the f-word thrown around everywhere over there. I hate the idea of a younger person not feeling comfortable accessing a site that could be very valuable and nurturing for them. It might come down to a question of, how kid-friendly do we want to be? Or are we mostly geared towards adults? Given that the rating system on the archive classes the f-word as a Mature-level swear word and you have to confirm that you're 17+ to read stories that include it, would this effectively make the forums a 17+ space? Are we cool with that?

Turns out I have a bunch of weird and complicated feelings on this issue despite the fact that the f-word is basically every second word that comes out of my mouth  Idk maybe my concerns are just me overthinking, and maybe I sound like a pearl-clutching grandma who doesn't understand The Youths, but these are the things I'm wondering about

I really like Kayla’s points both about escalation in tense situations and about our younger members.

I think it’s easy enough to misinterpret words on the internet as it is. Adding in strong language can make things come across way more charged than someone intended. I could see it leading to some misunderstandings.

Additionally, we’ve had quite a few members join while underage. Obviously, it is a parent’s responsibility to make sure the site their child is on is suitable, but I do like the idea of keeping the general area at least vaguely PG13. We put a lot of effort into making this a safe space for our members. That should include our youngest and most vulnerable.

I think having a Rated R password protected part of the forum would be a good compromise.

[abhorsen.]

(I’m not sure it makes a difference, but since the archive was mentioned in connection to this, I do want let y’all know that there are several archive changes we’ll be polling the site about in the near future, and bumping “fuck” down to T is one of them.)

[poppunkpadfoot]

5 minutes ago, abhorsen. said:

(I’m not sure it makes a difference, but since the archive was mentioned in connection to this, I do want let y’all know that there are several archive changes we’ll be polling the site about in the near future, and bumping “fuck” down to T is one of them.)

Thanks for the heads up, Branwen! I think that would make a difference because I think if, for example, the vote went that the f-word should stay at M on the archives, but the vote here went that we should be allowed to say the f-word on the forums, that would implicitly make the forums M-rated/17+ and people may feel differently about that question than they would about the simple question of "can we say fork"   or, on the other hand, if it's voted that the f-word be bumped down to T, then that totally negates my concern about the forum becoming 17+

[Bat Stitch Crazy]

I know as a teenager I was very conservative about my use of cussing outside of my group of friends. 

Now as an adult, I cuss like a sailor and use words that are as far from polite conversation as you can get. 

That being said, I think that allowing members to use the F-Word in specific areas of the site would be fine but those would have to be potentially in writing areas (with some type of strong language warning like the current advisories on the archives) or a restricted area of the forums so those that aren't comfortable using and seeing the language won't have to see it. 

I know we are all a respectable lot but I think allowing strong language on the forums would have a lot of potential for abuse and posts being taken out of context.

That being said, if the change is implemented site-wide, would members who choose to use strong language be required to give people a heads up at the beginning of their posts or would there be a general warning somewhere on the forums letting guests know that the some posts may contain strong language?

[Alexis Black]

On 10/24/2019 at 11:59 AM, toomanycurls said:

The reason we have a poll about it is out of concern for people who would feel uncomfortable seeing fuck used casually in posts. Any major change in how the community operates is always put to a vote. And you're right about trust -- we're trusting that people won't abuse the word fuck to be mean, rude, etc. 

This could be done a few ways -- maybe we allow the word fuck in the writing nest or in writing talk because that is a word people use in their writing. Or we could set up an entirely separate section that you'd have to request to join where mature content (and the word fuck) are discussed.  

A Restricted Section, perhaps? That option would be interesting.

[toomanycurls]

13 minutes ago, Alexis Black said:

A Restricted Section, perhaps? That option would be interesting.

We've picked this idea back up and think we'll be able to announce something soon. Of course we have @WriteYourHeartOut and you to thank for originally championing the idea when you were each on staff.

[ImaRavenclaw]

This is a few months old (and I know that we've already polled and agreed that the word in question can be used in the forums... At least I believe so? lol) but everyone has made very interesting and valid points so I thought I'd add in my opinion in case the situation changes or so. I totally agree with Kaitlin and Kayla that stronger language can escalate a tense situation. And in my opinion there should be a rule that heavier language shouldn't be used in site events because people can get competitive and such and some people have been conditioned differently than others towards that word. However, (and of course I don't want to discount anyone's feelings, I'm just speaking from personal experience), I can speak to the concern of age. Obviously I don't know everyone's ages but from what I have seen in my four years here, I do believe that I am one of the youngest members of the site. The forums of course start at the first year of teenage-hood. I live in a small town and my high school was grade 8-12 as a result. It is often hotly debated among the students whether or not kids that are at youngest 12 should be with kids who are at their oldest 18 (or 19 sometimes in the case of a year abroad!) However, even in my middle school (which was 7-9) expletives were constantly thrown around and even the kids who didn't swear never seemed bothered by it because we all eventually got desensitized and learned to realize that if nobody was using it against someone else then it really was just another word? I don't know. I feel like it's pretty common once you get to that age to hear or see that kind of thing and just know that it's not a big deal and you shouldn't feel pressured to use it or not. That said I totally appreciate the fact that we want HPFT to be a safe community and I really hold dear to that with all of my heart because I feel so welcome here even though I'm still rather smol compared to all of you educated folks. I want anyone who wants that to have that. It's important to have online communities like this! Proves that the internet isn't all evil.

And, p.s. I don't even think I can really say anything because the teachers at my high school were constantly using expletives in the middle of their classes haha (particularly my Psych 12 teacher. If you didn't hear him say 'shit' once a week then something was wrong. And don't even get me started on my Creative Writing teacher!!! F this f that!) So I don't really think that's conventional. 

Also, I love these types of discussions because this is totally in-line with my love of sociolinguistics and linguistic conditioning.