The Zabini's, race and blood purity

[Ravenclaw_scientist]

I had a revelation yesterday... 

In my fic, I've written the Zabini's as a pure-blood family. I assume that Blaise's mother amounted riches from murdering all her husbands and possibly made her way into the pure-blood circles that way. But I did assume that she was a pure blood considering Blaise's attitude. My idea is that they're not written into the Sacred Twenty-Eight because they're black and had either recently moved to Britain or were yet to settle here so the issue was timing and not blood status. 

But here is my issue...

If the Zabini's are canonically black and canonically pure blood, where are the other black pure bloods? What are people's head-canons on black pure-bloods?  

I sort of feel like pure blood culture is a very British/colonial thing, that might not exist in non-western cultures. 

But I'm now confused as to how the Zabini's can possibly be pure bloods. Did Blaise's mum sleep with people to get into pure blood society? is it al a lie? The possibilities! 

[Aphoride]

I don't think the Sacred 28 is any kind of exhaustive list of pureblood families - there's a bunch we know from canon are pureblood (like the Potters, the Crabbes, the Princes, etc.) who are/were pureblood and didn't make the list for whatever reason so it's entirely possible that families can be pureblood and not be on the list. Especially since I'm pretty sure it was just a list put together by some dude, which means it'll be full of his personal biases, grudges, issues, and based on his own beliefs about what 'makes' someone pureblood as opposed to halfblood, yk? Which, like, can be super complicated in terms of muggle-born relatives v muggle relatives; how many generations back do you go; what about squib ancestors; etc. So I think it's perfectly possible to be pureblood, be around at the time, and yet not have been in the Sacred 28 - for whatever reason, whether racism, personal grudges, etc. 

And the Shacklebolts and Shafiqs are listed in the Sacred 28 which suggests it's also possible to have non-white purebloods (at least, by the 1920s or whenever the list was put together). 

I think in the main it depends mostly on what you think pureblood is like - personally, I think of it like a class/title/status-type thing (like being upper class and part of 'society'), so people can join and leave and shift around, depending on what happens, and not everyone is going to necessarily be white or rich but they probably mostly will be? Which puts people like Blaise and Kingsley Shacklebolt who are both black and pureblood in an awkward position - because we know there's racism in the wizarding world (I think Pansy makes some horrifically racist comment about Angelina Johnson's hair at one point?) and their superior status of being pureblood doesn't mean they'd be saved from it or unaffected by it. Like you, too, I also kinda thought it was a British/western thing which shipped around the world via colonialism, tbh, and that would allow a way for non-white purebloods to come into pureblood society - though it would probably be more difficult because they likely didn't have the same 'standards' or way of keeping note or even defining blood status prior to the British coming in and imposing it on them. 

I don't personally think you could just sleep with people and 'become' pureblood that way - blood status is an ancestry thing, so if Blaise's mum isn't already pureblood (or at least halfblood) herself, he's not going to be, and whoever she sleeps with/marries&murders wouldn't make her or him any more pureblood, yk? It might get her and him into society, but v much as second-class citizens because they're not pureblood. Like you, I always assumed Blaise was pureblood: he sneers at the idea of dating Ginny because even though he thinks she's really pretty, she's a blood traitor, and he exclusively hangs out with people we know are not only purebloods but pureblood supremacists - so people we can be fairly confident wouldn't be hanging out with him, especially post-Voldemort's return, if he weren't pureblood. But we were never told specifically, so theoretically you could take it either way? Which is not necessarily helpful but  

[Margaret]

5 hours ago, Ravenclaw_scientist said:

I had a revelation yesterday... 

In my fic, I've written the Zabini's as a pure-blood family. I assume that Blaise's mother amounted riches from murdering all her husbands and possibly made her way into the pure-blood circles that way. But I did assume that she was a pure blood considering Blaise's attitude. My idea is that they're not written into the Sacred Twenty-Eight because they're black and had either recently moved to Britain or were yet to settle here so the issue was timing and not blood status. 

But here is my issue...

If the Zabini's are canonically black and canonically pure blood, where are the other black pure bloods? What are people's head-canons on black pure-bloods?  

I sort of feel like pure blood culture is a very British/colonial thing, that might not exist in non-western cultures. 

But I'm now confused as to how the Zabini's can possibly be pure bloods. Did Blaise's mum sleep with people to get into pure blood society? is it al a lie? The possibilities! 

I don't really think you have to be rich to be in pure-blood circles. And I think the Sacred 28 are people who can trace their pureblood a really long way back, like there were no Muggles in their families for centuries, whereas families like the Potters might have had a Muggle in it 5 generations back or something or they might just not care enough to do the necessary investigation to "prove" their blood was pure. I don't see any reason why the Zabinis wouldn't be pureblood. If they are prejudiced and only marry other purebloods, then they are likely to remain "pureblood".

It is definitely possible that the reason the Zabinis can't prove the purity of their blood is because some of the family are immigrants and it is harder to trace their ancestry. That would definitely explain why they weren't included in the Sacred 28 despite being pureblood.

I think the Sacred 28 is just a list of "we have proven to our satisfaction that there are no Muggles in this family for as far back as we can trace." And there may well be other pureblood families where it just isn't proven to the same degree. Plus, what's pureblood? If you have 8 wizarding great-grandparents but one was Muggleborn, are you pureblood? I know Harry is considered half-blood because his mother was Muggleborn, but what about his kids? Are they pureblood, given that all four grandparents were magical and three were from pureblood families? If they are considered half-blood, where does it stop? Are you still half-blood if you are 1/64 Muggle? If you have one Muggle ancestor back in 1200?

As regards the other black purebloods, well, you've Kingsley Shacklebolt, but I think we are dealing with minorities of minorities here. Like a minority of Britain's population is black, a minority of the population are wizards (probably only a few thousand really) and a minority of wizards are pureblood. If there are saying 5,000 or 10,000 wizards in the UK and say 1/10 of them are pureblood, that's between 500 and 1,000 pureblood witches and wizards in the UK. Looking at the demographics of the UK, it looks as if about 4% of the population is black so tha would be 20-40 black purebloods in the entire UK. And of course, the number of witches and wizards who appear in the books are probably a minority of those in the UK. I know I am making up those numbers entirely, but the odds are it's a very small number. And we don't know if witches and wizards are as likely as Muggles to emigrate from one country to another.

[shadowycorner]

I also think that Blaise's comments about Ginny don't necessarily make him a pureblood, rather an individual who knows where the power is and so that's why he goes along with what will satisfy or impress the other pureblood cronies. Snape is a huge member of Voldemort's inner circle and he isn't pureblood, and neither is Voldemort. I always imagined Blaise and his mother as being very good wizarding socialites instead of one of the Sacred Twenty Eight. By the way, I agree with the above statements that that list is probably as accurate as any history book - it's written by an individual who might have been biased and only adding families based on what they themselves considered or wanted to consider as 'pureblood'. 

I think it's safe to make Blaise and his mother whatever works for you. They can pretend to be pureblood because of status for example. 

[Bat Stitch Crazy]

You have to remember to keep in mind too that in order to have a place among the sacred 28, not only did your bloodline have to remain pure for an extended period of time, (not sure how many generations) your bloodlines loyalty had to align with the ideals expressed among pureblood supremacy ideology. (That is worded funny but hopefully you get what I mean) The Potters and Weasleys were not included because they were not pureblood supremacists and were known to associate with and be sympathetic towards muggles and Muggleborns even though their pure bloodline could be traced back for more than the required length of time. 

Families were added and removed from the list based on many different factors including perceived notions or assumptions about their loyalty to the cause.
 

The names that are commonly associated with the sacred 28 are those whose pureblood loyalties were proven, often through violence towards muggles. (Such as the Blacks and Malfoys) some were also not included out of spite and with the amount of husbands Blaise’s mom had, the possibility of her intermingling with people not approved by the list would be enough to keep her off it. (So could the possibility that she may have had an affair with a member or killed a member, there’s just so much we don’t know.) 

I’m actually working on a story that focuses on Blaise and his mom and this could be something to expand on and work into my plot. (once I get to that point anyway)

(please note I’m not entirely sure how much of this is actual canon and how much is fanon other than the Weasleys not being included for having sympathy towards muggles being canon according to the HP wiki)

[shadowycorner]

14 hours ago, MalfoysAngel said:

Families were added and removed from the list based on many different factors including perceived notions or assumptions about their loyalty to the cause.

I think this is an excellent point and explains everything quite well. I can imagine how the Sacred Twenty Eight was a construct of the Pureblood agenda and therefore only consists of families with no obvious and blatant sympathies towards Muggles or Muggleborns, regardless of them being mostly pureblooded.

Not sure if it's canon or fanon, but that's fine, I think, it actually makes perfect sense. Good luck with all your Blaise stories, guys :) I plan to use him as a huuuuuge villain in my next one, mwahaha. :D So I'll be keeping an eye out for your takes on the Zabinis!

[Ravenclaw_scientist]

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this, there's a lot to explore and I'm now excited to write about him in so many ways! 

I totally agree that the S28 is a flawed list (like where are the Potters?). I mentioned it as in the context of my fic, the list is super important. 

20 hours ago, Aphoride said:

Like you, too, I also kinda thought it was a British/western thing which shipped around the world via colonialism, tbh, and that would allow a way for non-white purebloods to come into pureblood society - though it would probably be more difficult because they likely didn't have the same 'standards' or way of keeping note or even defining blood status prior to the British coming in and imposing it on them. 

This is an amazing concept to explore, especially in our current climate of trying to bring black history to the forefront. Does anyone know of any fics that have discussed this? 

I'm edging towards the idea that the Zabinis are pure bloods but the Blaise is a second gen immigrant, which brings up a whole load of race issues which could also be interesting to explore. 

19 hours ago, Margaret said:

I think the Sacred 28 is just a list of "we have proven to our satisfaction that there are no Muggles in this family for as far back as we can trace." And there may well be other pureblood families where it just isn't proven to the same degree. Plus, what's pureblood? If you have 8 wizarding great-grandparents but one was Muggleborn, are you pureblood? I know Harry is considered half-blood because his mother was Muggleborn, but what about his kids? Are they pureblood, given that all four grandparents were magical and three were from pureblood families? If they are considered half-blood, where does it stop? Are you still half-blood if you are 1/64 Muggle? If you have one Muggle ancestor back in 1200?

It's definitely a struggle to put Harry and Ginny's kids into a blood purity box. You'd assume they would be pure bloods to anyone that wasn't a supremacist? I've introduced the language of generations of purity into my fics. So James Sirius, Albus and Lily Luna would be first generation pure-bloods, their children (if they had kids with at least a half-blood) would be second gen pure-bloods. The higher the generation number, the "purer" they are. It's language I'm only having the S28 use because it means that one muggle born breaks the chain, when an original muggle-born who just married pure, three generations ago could be considered purer than the Potter kids, but I think it's useful. 

I always thought that the S28 list was meant to mirror the date cutoff that Nationalist British parties use to describe people that are "really" British. I know this is something in the 1930's. 

14 hours ago, MalfoysAngel said:

I’m actually working on a story that focuses on Blaise and his mom and this could be something to expand on and work into my plot. (once I get to that point anyway)

I'm so excited to read this when it's ready!

[grumpy cat]

6 hours ago, Ravenclaw_scientist said:

I've introduced the language of generations of purity into my fics.

this is so wild my mind is blown (by wild i obviously mean cool and creative and original and cool)

what does that make ron and hermione's kids?

[toomanycurls]

Alright, so, this is controversial but one of the interesting world building aspects of FB: Crimes of Grindelwald was the lineage of the Leta Lestrange and Yusuf Kama. They are both played by black actors and are purebloods. There's also a suggestion in the movie that women aren't always counted in lineages and a few other very offensive and regressive ideas BUT

if you do a read through of their character bios on a fandom wiki I think there's good fodder for justifying Blaise's pureblood status and why it's not part of other lists that are going around. 

[Ravenclaw_scientist]

3 hours ago, grumpy cat said:

this is so wild my mind is blown (by wild i obviously mean cool and creative and original and cool)

what does that make ron and hermione's kids?

Why thank you!

Ron and Hermione's kids are still half-bloods. It doesn't matter that Hermione is a witch because she's still muggle-born. If Rose or Hugo had kids with a magical person, their kids would be first gen pure bloods. 

I suppose it's like a compromise system for the pure-blooded families, so they don't die out but it also encourages their kids to aim for bigger generation numbers and stick with other pure-bloods. 

One of my favourite characters (a baby Flint) claims to be at least twelfth generation pure blooded. My headcanon is that most S28's are at least tenth gen (except maybe the Zabini's but they definitely lie about it), so one or two gen isn't really accepted by the older pure-blood families for marriage but could be ok for working relationships or friendships.

[grumpy cat]

9 minutes ago, Ravenclaw_scientist said:

maybe the Zabini's but they definitely lie about it

i mean this is hilarious but also probably true

i really love the system you devised (love as in...a world building element, not the uhh actual pureblood supremacy )

it also fits with the idea that the purebloods would think of a way to circumvent *the rules* without admitting their world view is wrong and unsustainable.

as for the zabinis - i headcanon mrs zabini as the badassest of them all bc who in their right mind marries a woman with not one or even two dead husbands, but six???? she must be hella something cool to achieve that. so to answer your question i'd make her an old gen pureblood who mixed with those who aren't so she's kinda frowned upon but her blood makes up for it. i also headcanon her as keeping her maiden name to preserve it bc bahaha *she's* obviously not going to take her husband's name, just his money

[sibilant]

On 6/15/2020 at 5:08 AM, Ravenclaw_scientist said:

I sort of feel like pure blood culture is a very British/colonial thing, that might not exist in non-western cultures. 

This is a super cool thread, and I wanted to offer some thoughts here...I totally agree that pure-blood culture is a British colonial thing, and I think that is exactly why it would filter out to other cultures, especially those who were colonized by the British. Thinking specifically about India--I think blood purity could easily function in Indian cultures similarly to how caste functions, which also lets blood purity act as an interesting world-building element, since it would then fundamentally shape Indian society. I'm still trying to figure out what dismantling "wizarding castes based on blood purity" would look like, though.

[Ravenclaw_scientist]

7 hours ago, sibilant said:

This is a super cool thread, and I wanted to offer some thoughts here...I totally agree that pure-blood culture is a British colonial thing, and I think that is exactly why it would filter out to other cultures, especially those who were colonized by the British. Thinking specifically about India--I think blood purity could easily function in Indian cultures similarly to how caste functions, which also lets blood purity act as an interesting world-building element, since it would then fundamentally shape Indian society. I'm still trying to figure out what dismantling "wizarding castes based on blood purity" would look like, though.

This is super interesting. I'm not well-read enough into the caste system (I'm trying but... colonial education) but I think this could show how ingrained pure-blood society could be for wizards. Correct me if I'm wrong but the caste system controls every aspect of someone's life from where they can be educated to the types of jobs they can have, right? So as an aim for a pure-blood society, this could be dreamy for them. Only their kids get to go to Hogwarts or work in the Ministry ect. and the half-bloods or muggle borns have to go elsewhere with no real way of climbing. This is similar to something I'm writing at the moment so I won't go to far into it, but it has given me plenty of reading!